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I usually ignore this kind of mail, I don't have time to respond to it. But I have made an exception for Stephanie from Kansas. Stephanie's words are in normal type, Sunny's words are in italics.

Hello Stephanie,

> While doing a search to find an uplifting spiritual message from Elisabeth Elliot I came across a hate email you have posted on your web site. 

I'm always pleased to learn about how my fans find Sunshine for Women.

> First, I would like to encourage you to spell her name correctly - if indeed this is the Elisabeth Elliot you are referring to.  If not, disregard this portion of my email. 

I am having a bit of trouble understanding which Elisabeth / Elizabeth Elliot you are referring to. I had to find the page in question to understand your concern. All I know about the person who sent it is that she signed her name Elizabeth Elliot. In my reply I used the name Elizabeth Elliot: I assumed that the author spelled her own name correctly. If you had bothered to read her signature, you would have discovered this fact on your own. Your research abilities leave something to be desired.

So your style appears to be to let some piece of drivel come into your head, then screech about it, possibly ruining someone else's reputation. If your victim can prove that you are wrong, you are willing to allow them to just disregard what you said. Your style is obnoxious, to say the least. Are you a Rush Limbaugh dittohead?

By the way, the ungrateful wretch never did send me a thank you note for my assistance. How tacky.

> Second, I guess I would challenge your reasoning behind being proud of receiving hate mail.  I understand you feminists are all about change but isn't the backbone of what you do all about love and acceptance?  Don't you lobby against the hatred?  If so, then receiving hate mail should not make you proud.  It should make you question your effectiveness.  You are not winning people to your cause if they hate you.

Stephanie, dear. Some people can not be reasoned with. They are so full of hatred and their minds are so closed that absolutely nothing that is said to them by any one using any rhetorical device will penetrate their closed minds. When such a person visits my web site and sends me a hate mail, I think I have actually managed to penetrate their thought processes – even if I have not convinced them of the correctness of my position. Nonetheless, beginning a dialog with them about their concerns is a step forward toward their liberation from darkness. So, yes, I am quite proud when I receive hate mail - at least I got the person thinking.

And, yes, Stephanie, dear, part of feminism is about accepting people who are different from you, just as the message of Jesus of Nazareth is one of peace and love. Nonetheless many self-avowed Christians support war, even to the point of using nuclear weapons. If you can accept that some, even many, Christians support war using the most destructive weapons developed in the history of the world, without disparaging Christianity, why can't you accept that at times feminists are forced to use something other than logic and love to protect themselves and other women from the predations of men? I detect a double standard here – tacky, very tacky.

> I just want to leave you with this thought.  I am a Christian woman who worked for five years in an agency that was proud to call itself a feminist agency. 

Oh, so you are a Christian feminist! Great! You come from a long line of women who were empowered by their religion and fought to improve the lives of the people around them, including improving the lives of women as women. Most of the great 19th - century American feminists began as social reformers who were spurred on by the religious revivals of the 1820s and 1830s. Certainly Lucretia Mott, the Grimke Sisters, Abby Kelley Foster, and Paulina Wright Davis (US) come to mind, as well as, Josephine Butler in the UK. Unfortunately, in their temperance and suffrage work, many women who started out deeply devoted to their religion, like Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, faced so much resistance by the organized religious institutions of their day that they left the church. How sad.

> By the time I left, I had a very clear view of what feminist meant. 

Oh? That must have been an exceptional agency for you to have learned about the many forms of feminism from such a small group of people. I really have to give you a lot of credit - my understanding of feminism keeps changing, broadening, to include more concerns of interest to women. I have read dozens of books on feminist theory as well as the writings of six centuries of feminist writers and I still keep learning something new about feminism and feminists. I find your accomplishment quite impressive.

Don't you find the story of the small, nineteenth-century, Japanese, feminist movement, sparked by both US trained school-girls and Christian missionaries, to be quite interesting? What do you think of Margaret Askew Fell Fox's Women's Speaking Justified? How do you reconcile such diametrically-opposed, contemporary feminist theorists as Dworkin, McKinnen, and McElroy? Ms. Expert on Feminism, you do know what I am talking about, don't you?

> It meant a bunch of very angry women who want everyone to accept their point of view and embrace their beliefs

Yes, I am a feminist and I admit to being quite angry at times - I am angry about the violence against women, rape, sexual slavery, trafficking in women, the feminization of poverty, and the ease with which married and single men abandon their children to the sole care of the children's mother - and that is just the beginning of my list. I hope those things anger you, too. And, yes, I will work hard to convince you that you should be angry about those things. Perhaps you believe that I should just stand aside and say nothing to convince people who support violence against women, violence in our larger society, pornographic depictions of women, and discrimination against women in the workplace, in educational institutions, and in religious organizations that they are morally wrong.

> - while they hate and continually put down what everyone else holds dear to their hearts. 

That is a very strong statement. "Hate" is a strong word. Are you sure they hate?

"Continually put down"? What does that mean? Does it mean that they won't accept your definitions of right and wrong - and they have the temerity to say so? Does that mean that when you start preaching Christianity and are asked for the dozenth time to cease and desist and yet you continue to explicate on Christianity that your victims tells you in no uncertain terms what they believe of your version of Christianity -- and you find their opinions offensive? What give you the right to offend others with your talk, but does not give others the right to offend you by their talk? I really am getting tired of some Christians believing that they can walk up to someone and begin insulting them just because that person is different from them.

Who is "everyone else"? I know of nothing that "everyone else holds dear to their hearts". Please explain to me what exactly it is that "everyone else holds dear to their heart"? I might be willing to go along with "some other people hold dear to their hearts", but "everyone else" is a stretch for me. You seem to be doing a good job of putting feminists down, ie, YOU put down what many other people hold dear in their hearts. Now, why are you permitted to be offended, but your victims are not permitted to be offended. Being a Christian does not give you the special right to be offensive and obnoxious -- Christians as a group are neither better nor worse than non-Christians as a group. Why the double standard?

> I am a reasonable woman. 

Good. That means we have at least some chance of resolving our differences. After all, I am also a reasonable woman.

> I am not ignorant, walking aimlessly through this world believing just anything anyone convinces me to believe.

Great! I see that feminism has seeped into your life. After all, you have adopted the feminist notion that women have brains and are capable of using them, that women don't need any one else to tell them what to think, and that women have a right to their own opinions. Congratulations, we already have something in common.

> I check my sources, I do my research,

I hope that the first paragraph of your e-mail is not indicative of the quality of your research. I expect better work from 12 - year - olds.

> and I go with what brings me peace in my heart. 

So do I. I feel incredibly blessed by God, a very humbling notion.

> So far there has never been a feminist that could convince me that the Word of God is not true. 

What does the word of God being true or untrue have to do with this conversation? Why would you expect feminists to convince you that the "Word of God" (as interpreted by you) is not true? Do you believe that it is not possible to be both a feminist and a Christian at the same time? If so, then there are many, many people who disagree with you.

Any one who believes that one can not be both a feminist and a good Christian at the same time needs to rethink her Christian theology. In my mind, being a good Christian requires one to be a good feminist. In society after society, in age after age, women have been the least of these my brethren - and we both know about Christ's injunction to care for the least of these my brethren.

> There has never been a feminist to show me more love and compassion than Jesus Christ.

Have you ever showed anyone, feminist or not, more love and compassion than you believe that you get from Jesus Christ? If the answer is no, why are you surprised that feminists do not show you more love and compassion than you believe you get from Jesus Christ? Do you believe that one can not be loved by Jesus if she is a feminist? If so, you need to rethink your christology. Try reading some of the wonderful books that a generation of feminist theologians has written that examine many Bible passages in a new light – or are you afraid to intellectually engage anyone who can defeat you by using your intellectual weapon of choice.

>  There has never been a feminist to show more interest in my life than the pastor of my church, his wife, and my church family. 

Interesting. Have you ever demonstrated any concern for anyone who was not a member of your family or part of your church? If not, why are you surprised that no one, feminist or non-feminist, has demonstrated as much concern for your well-being as has your pastor, the members of your church, and your family? I think you have a lot of double standards – you are intellectually dishonest.

> The feminists that I know would tell me that my white male Protestant pastor is the root of all evil. 

I am sure that some feminists do believe that - I am just as sure that many feminists do not believe that. Perhaps you should read some of the works of feminist Christian theologians - many of whom are white, female, Protestant pastors. Oh, I forgot - you know everything about feminism. You don't need to do something like read the writings of women who profess to be both Christians and feminists - because you claim they don't exist. Funny, but the women who profess to be both Christians and feminists believe that they exist - and I am one of them. Do you think I don't exist?

> Well you know what, there is nothing further from the truth.

Give the lady a cigar! She got it right.

> When you all

Me? Do you perhaps mean "someone"? If you do indeed mean "me," then I have a bone to pick with you.

> blame the problems of our society on white male Protestants

Well, I think that white, male Protestants have come in for so much blame for our social ills because by-and-large white, male Protestants hold the reigns of power in this country. - They make the laws, they enforce the laws, they run the courts, they head religious, academic, and financial institutions, they run corporations, . . . It seems to me that the people who have the power to make, enforce, and change the rules should be accountable for the consequences of their choices. They get the credit when things go well, they get the blame when things go bad.

Who do you think should be held to account for the rules that the rich and powerful create and enforce? The poor and powerless?

> - you are talking about my pastor, my husband, my grandfather, and many other wonderful men

I agree. There are good men, men of faith and men of no faith, white men and men of color, rich men and poor men,  . . . If you had read any of my tributes to our feminist forefathers,

2003: Thomas Herrtell, Remarks on the Bill to Restore to Married Women "The Right Of Property," as Guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States

2002: Marquis de Condorcet, Advice to My Daughter (1794)

2001: From E. P. Hurlbut's Essays Upon Human Rights and Their Political Guarantees

2000: Thomas Elyot, The Defense of Good Women (1545)

1999: E-Texts of Pro-feminist Men

1998: Feminist Forefathers

you would have known that before you wrote this message. You did visit other places at Sunshine for Women to discover what this particular feminist believes before you launched into your diatribe, didn't you? I certainly hope so; I would hate to think that your scholarship and research are so shoddy that you didn't even bother to look over the menu on my home page.

> who have invested far more in my life than any feminist ever has or ever will. 

Do you like having been taught to read? Do you like being able to speak your mind in both public and private? Do you like being able to go out alone at night without being mistaken for a prostitute? Do you like being able to go out of your house and not worry about being snatched off the street and sold into sexual slavery? Do you like having access to birth control - to control the timing of your pregnancies, the number of pregnancies you will endure, and the size of your family? And I do mean birth control - not abortion.

Do you like having control over your most intimate possession - your body? Do you remember the days when "marital rape" was an oxymoron and the staple of late night comedians? Do you truly believe that a woman who has had the crap beat out of her by her husband then has been expected to sexually service her assailant has not been raped? Perhaps labeling those actions for what they are is of no consequence to you because your husband does not beat you. Nonetheless, many women have been empowered by the knowledge that NO man has the right, EVER, to force himself on any woman - even if he is her husband. Perhaps those women and that small success on their behalf don't matter to you - they do matter to me because I care about ALL women and how ALL women are treated as women.

Do you like having access to credit in your own name? Do you like having the same educational and job opportunities as men? Do you like not living in a society where folk wisdom claims that "neither an omelet nor a woman is ever beaten enough"? If you do, then you can thank feminists for fighting for those and many other things during the last six centuries.

As an aside, if the vast majority of men treat women so well, why did it take six centuries to accomplish those little, tiny baby steps? During portions of those six centuries, Christian churches of one variety or another were the most powerful institutions in the area, yet little or nothing was done by the church to improve women's lives. If the Christian church is such a staunch supporter of women as women, why is that statement true?

Has your pastor given any of these things to you? Has he ever spoken out against any injustice toward women? How about your father? Your husband? Your grandfather? Was your church at the vanguard of the fight against the many injustices against women? Is your church now at the vanguard of the fight against the injustices against women? Indeed, what have YOU done to right the injustices that women suffer only because they are women - work, that is, that you weren't paid to do by an organization whose very tenets you disparage? Are you one of those women who avail themselves of the opportunities created for them by feminists and who use the feminist movement for their own personal self-interest then turn around and knife other feminists in the back? I am curious to know what kind of Christian I am speaking to.

> I wonder what it will be like for all of you when you stand at the judgement seat of Christ

On the Day of Judgment, when I stand before my maker to account for my life, I shall do so with awe - and with fear and trepidation, for I know that my life has been far from being without sin. I also know that my creator will remember the times when spoke out for religious tolerance when so many Protestants refused to vote for a man for President because he was a Catholic; when I spoke out against racial injustice, when so many white, Bible Belt Christians believed that the solution to America's race problem was to "put them all on a boat and ship them back to Africa"; when I spoke out against senseless slaughter of the Vietnam War, despite being labeled a pinko-commie-fag by the media; when I spoke against the oppression that women as women encounter while living in an area where such women were considered lesbians and all the good-ole-boys just knew that the way to cure a woman of being a lesbian was for her to have sex with a "real man" -- even if she had to be forced into it; when I spoke out for the environment - and every body knew that only tree-hugging hippies believed they were not making much ado over nothing; when I debated whether or not all Jews were Christ-killers; when I spoke out for access to good medical care for all Americans; and, yes, when I spoke out for the right of fundamentalist Christians to make pronouncements on such topics as which women are just asking to be raped (Do you agree with your fellow Christians that any woman who enters a traditional male dominated profession like medicine, law, or engineering is just asking to be raped?), even though fundies and their credo were far from esteemed in many circles - in short, the many times when I spoke out and acted on behalf of the "least of these my brethren." I think God is both just and merciful. If that is so, then I believe that God will know that on balance, I helped to move our world toward a more just and humane society and she will have mercy on my soul.

> and have to answer for all the people you have misled with this movement.

What do you know about me other than what you read on my one response to a rather obnoxious reader? What possessed you to jump to the conclusion that I "mislead" anyone with "this movement"? Exactly how or when did I mislead anyone? Who did I mislead? When you have read EVERY PAGE at Sunshine for Women, write again and we will pursue this issue further. Until then, I have serious reservations about your assessment of other people's character, your ability to competently research an issue, your ability to fairly and honestly analyze other people's ideas, and your willingness to intellectually engage people who disagree with you in an honest debate.

> I am sure that means nothing to you right now.

Are you really so sure that that means nothing to me? How do you know if it does or if it does not mean anything to me? How did you come to that conclusion? Either that statement is a completely unsubstantiated product of your imagination or it is a gross mischaracterization of something which you have read at Sunshine for Women. Whatever the case may be, the statement reflects poorly on your scholarly abilities.

> Regardless of whether you believe in Christ or not, it does not change the fact that you will meet Him face to face one day -  

And what will YOU do on the Day of Judgment when God asks you to account for your life, when she asks you what you did to help the least of these my brethren?

> What will you say for yourself?   

My deeds will speak for themselves for I believe that God will know the facts - and will know what is in my heart.

What will YOU say on the Day of Judgment when you realize that God is not stupid, that she has little tolerance for those who attribute viciousness to her (read the story of the Amalakites), that she isn't going to get into a semantic debate for she believes that keeping the spirit of the law is more important than keeping the letter of the law, and that she knows what you have done to make the world a less loving and a more unjust place?

May God have mercy on your soul. Eternity is a long time to spend in perdition - repent now and beg God for her mercy while there is still time to save your soul.  

> Stephanie
> Kansas

Sunny
Virginia

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