At 12:25 PM 8/7/99 EDT, you wrote:
>Sunny, So what makes a feminist in your book?

A feminist is a man or a woman who acknowledges the inherent inequality between men and women in our culture and society and acts to dismantle the sources of that inequality.

> In mine, it requires caring
>about women and wanting them to have equal rights, not special rights.

So true.

>Abortion in our culture leaves the father out of the picture.

If a man gets pregnant and wants to have an abortion, he can have an abortion. If a man gets pregnant and doesn't want to have an abortion, he will not be compelled to have an abortion. Same rules as for women. What is unequal about that?

> What if the
>father wants to have the baby and raise it?

No man has a right to control any one else's body. Remember our bodily resources argument? No man has the right to control any other man's or woman's bodily resources. If a man wants to have a child and cannot get pregnant, he can marry someone who can get pregnant and who is willing to have a child for him, he can find a woman who is willing to have his child out-of-wedlock and allow him to adopt it, or he can adopt a child that is not biologically his own. There are plenty of children who need homes. His genes aren't that important if he truly wants to raise a child.

> He can't stop his
>girlfriend/wife/significant other from having an abortion.

That's right. Her body, her choice.

> But if she wants
>to keep the baby and he wants the abortion, too bad, he has to pay child
>support.

That's right. The little critters don't get raised for free.

> That is a double standard.

So what. If you had your way, women could be forced to endure a pregnancy that no man could ever be compelled to endure. That's a double standard.

> That is a special right.

Nope. Her body, her right to control its resources, just like men control their bodily resources.

I do recommend responsible fatherhood. If men were more careful in their sperm donations, there would be much less need for abortion. To encourage men to only engage in risky behavior when they are ready to be responsible fathers, I have a few suggestions.

(As a note to my readers: place tongue firmly in cheek, well, sometimes any way.)

Responsible Paternity Law:

I. Universal male DNA genotype database for purpose of determining paternity.

Compulsory DNA genotyping of all males above age 11, with national database (a prototype is already available in the Armed Forces, where it is mandatory for service members to provide blood samples).

Database may not be used for purposes other than paternity determination, rape prosecution, and felony violent crime prosecution.

II. Paternity law in which mothers are under age 18.

Compulsory DNA genotyping of all infants or abortuses of unmarried mothers under 18, and of DNA of the mothers themselves. Compulsory crossmatching of infant and mother genotypes with male genotype database.

Major jail time for all males over age 18 who have fathered children on girls under age 16. (We are talking statutory rape here. Don't you think it is a good idea to see to it that men who rape women and impregnate them are punished? Most of the girls/women under the age of 18 who become pregnant are impregnated by men over the age of 20. A 20 something or a 30 something year old man has no business having sex with a teenager. Don't you wish to do everything in your power to stop this sexual exploitation of women and girls?) Felony conviction, with consequent legal disabilities (loss of voting rights, for example).

Medium jail time for males under 18 who have fathered children on girls under 16, or males under 16 who have fathered children on girls more than two years younger.

Minor jail time for males under 16 who have fathered children on girls more than two years younger than themselves.

Males under 18 who father children on girls between age 16 and 18 are treated as adults in the matter of child support obligations, as detailed in section III.

III. Paternity law pertaining to mothers over 18.

DNA genotyping of infants and mothers must be made available free of charge to mothers over 18, at and only at the request of the mother herself, for purposes of possible prosecution for child support or for the crime of subjection of woman to involuntary servitude through unwanted pregnancy .The male DNA database listed in section I must fulfill crossmatch requests from actively prosecuting complainants.

IIIA. Child support prosecution. (build on and strengthen existing laws)

IIIB. Prosecution of those men who subject women to the involuntary servitude of unwanted pregnancy.

Involuntary servitude for men accused of fathering an unwanted pregnancy, for as long as the pregnancy lasts. The following penalties in section i. apply to first-time offenders. Section ii. applies to repeat offenders. All offenders are enrolled in a national database for determination of repeat offenses.

i. "Involuntary servitude" as follows: part-time work, 20 hours/week, on public works projects, for those who have dependents to support, full-time work at sub-minimum wage for those without dependents. Accommodation (hours, etc) to allow continuation of existing job will be given only for men with dependents; others are scheduled at the need of the state and may well be at risk of losing the existing job or school attendance. "Unwanted" is defined by the woman involved, not by any other person, and she need not justify her decision. Men accused must work (no paid substitutes), though women married to such men may receive childcare assistance from the government. Putative father receives monetary damages (minimum wage for hours worked) from woman if she has wrongly identified him as the father, and there is probable cause for her suspicion. Civil suit for damages above this amount may not be allowed in cases of this sort. Probable cause may be broadly defined. If there is no probable cause (no sex or no opportunity for sex), then complainant may be subject to civil suit for any amount of damages.

ii. Repeat offenders, or scofflaws evading penalties for the first offense, are sentenced to jail without respect to the presence of dependents. Jail term is "no frills", with vegetarian meals, 2 or 4 prisoners to a cell, and no personal possessions worth more than 25$ (value when new) allowed in cell. Savings from no-frills prison administration to be used for the support of any dependents of jailed men. Privileges such as meat meals, cigarettes, TV in cell, and even conjugal visits may be earned only by participation in prison labor opportunities, and prisoners may keep up to 25% of wages for personal use, the other 75% being reserved for support of dependents.

IIIC. Penalties for assault and/or intimidation of complainants.

Major jail time for fathers/putative fathers who assault or threaten women who have made paternity claims against them, or proven fathers who dodge support bills.

>The problem with abortion is that it is/was suppose to solve a womens
>problems.

And many women find that abortion does solve the problem of an unwanted pregnancy.

> With abortion we were suppose to see a decrease in child abuse,
>instead it has gone up.

No. The number of reported cases of child abuse has gone up. Just because child abuse is coming out of the closet doesn't mean that it is any more prevalent now than it was 20 or 30 years ago.

>Lets talk about Post-Abortion Stress.

OK. Our last militantly anti-abortion Surgeon General, Dr. C. Everett Koop, well-recognized in the anti-abortion movement for anti-abortion literature grounded in religious/moral (not medical) terms, said that there was no evidence supporting a "post-abortion syndrome". Furthermore, he flatly stated that there was no maternal health argument against legalized abortion, based on scientific/epidemiologic literature.

> I'm going to give you a few sources to
>check your data with. According to the British College of Medicine vol20 no
>4 April of 1978, "despite surface appearances, abortion leaves behind deeper
>feelings "invariably of intense pain, involving bereavement and a sense of
>identification with the foetus."

There isn't any reference in MEDLINE (the most comprehensive medical literature database in the world) to a "British College of Medicine" or any other "British..." primary care journal with the appropriate vol. no., date, and keyword or textword "abortion". Speckhard and Rue have one citation each in a journal, Issues in Law and Medicine, which by the table of contents seems to be focused primarily on abortion and euthanasia issues, with occasional Bible verses in titles. There are no well-known ethicist authors, including the well-known Catholic anti-abortion ethicists listed.

>Post abortion suicide, Suicide Anonymous in a 35 month period in the
>Cincinnati, Ohio area, reported counseling 5, 620 people. Of those 4,000
>were woman, 1,800 had abortions, and 1,400 were between 15 -24 years old. M.
>Uchtman, Ohio Director of Suiciders Anonymous Report to the Cincinnati City
>Council, Sept. 1, 1981.

The "Suicide Anonymous" population has approximately the general population's prevalence of abortion (45% for both populations). Therefore one cannot conclude that abortion is associated with an inclination towards suicide or depression or the inclination to join groups - rather, that abortion is irrelevant to these conditions. The reason for suicide attempts is -not- noted. Furthermore, I have to wonder why an organization that presents itself as being along the self-run, non-expert approach to AA would be collecting data on its members. This runs completely counter to the traditional AA ethos, in which members are identified by first name only to other members. Cincinnati, Ohio is known as having been a strong anti-abortion organization town - John Wilke (sic), former pres of Natl. Right to Life (or other major org.) was a local physician.

>. Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome: An Emerging Public
>Health Concern Portsmith NH, by Ann C. Speckhard PhD. Vincent M. Rue. PhD.
>(1991) These sources are not Christian or pro-life.

They don't *advertise* that they are "Christian or pro-life".

Speckhard has one book in the Missouri-wide university card catalogue, published by the religious (Catholic) publisher Sheed and Ward. Sheed and Ward does not publish psychology textbooks or medical textbooks, but is a prime publisher of catechetical and devotional tracts. If I were trying to reach other medical/psychological -professionals- to educate them on a problem that could be well -demonstrated by statistically valid, non-anecdotal evidence-, I would submit to some other publisher with a reputation for peer review and scientific editing, eg., Springer-Verlag, Jossey-Bass, etc - anything but a sectarian religious house. However, the point is not to convince health professionals, and in fact there seems to be very little methodologically and statistically sound information on "post-abortion syndrome" accessible to data-minded health professionals. The fact that the anti-abortion community has not produced or called for major peer-reviewed studies, with participation of both anti- and pro-abortion researchers in the statistical design and review team, suggests that they don't really believe in the general validity of the syndrome, or do not want to have it known that instances of adverse psychological outcome are likely related to membership in conservative churches.

The literature on longterm psychological effects of abortion is not very large, only 3 recent articles show up in a MEDLINE search. You can do the search yourself. I don't need to hand you a list of titles that you can make up quotes from.

>Every large city has a free support group for women suffering from this very
>real problem. Any crisis pregnancy center can give you a referral. They are
>also groups on the web. Post abortion counseling works wonders in restoring
>the heart of women injured by abortion. I can testify to the grace of God
>that restores the souls of those who have been so deeply wounded. I serve
>such a great a gracious God, who longs to wipe away every tear and to give us
>beauty from ashes.
>I don't really know why you choose to ignore the storys of those who have
>been where you haven't. Sometimes the truth is not easy to hear, but it is
>still the truth.

I will acknowledge that some women, a very tiny percentage of all women who have had abortions, suffer from post-abortion stress. I don't think there is any decision that a large number of people make in life that doesn't result in at least of few of them regretting the decision later in life. Just look at how many people regret getting married. Abortion is no different.

>You seem to believe that the bible isn't clear on abortion? Are you for
>real??

Why yes, I am for real. Give me chapter and verse where the Bible takes a stand against abortion.

> Haven't you ever read it? I shall give you the benefit of the doubt.
> If you claim to be a Christian, I will assume that you are, I will just
>assume that you are not well informed. When we read scripture, we are
>suppose to read it as a whole. I
>would point to the Law, in Exodus21:22 " if men who are fighting hit a
>pregnant women and she has a miscarriage, but there is no serious injury, the
>offender must be fined whatever the womens husband demands and the court
>allows. But if there is a serious injury, you are to take life for life."
>That is because the death of the baby falls under the law"Thou shall not
>murder."

Exodus 21: 22 When people who are fighting injure a pregnant woman so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no further harm follows, the one responsible shall be fined what the woman’s husband demands, paying as much as the judges determine. 23 If any harm follows, then you shall give life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Clearly the author means, "If 2 men are fighting and one of their wives who is pregnant intervenes and something happens that causes her to miscarry, then the pregnant woman's husband can ask for restitution, subject to review by the courts. If, in addition to the loss of the fetus, the woman suffers additional damage, then it shall be eye fo an eye, tooth for a tooth, etc."

That is a far cry from condemning abortion.

What about this passage where God commands a priest to administer a potential abortificient in a trial-by-ordeal. Clearly, God wants the fetus of an adulterer to be expelled from the woman's womb.

Numbers 5: 11 The LORD spoke to Moses, saying: 12 Speak to the Israelites and say to them: If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 if a man has had intercourse with her but it is hidden from her husband, so that she is undetected though she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her since she was not caught in the act; 14 if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife who has defiled herself; or if a spirit of jealousy comes on him, and he is jealous of his wife, though she has not defiled herself; 15 then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. And he shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley flour. He shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of remembrance, bringing iniquity to remembrance.

16 Then the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD; 17 the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall set the woman before the LORD, dishevel the woman’s hair, and place in her hands the grain offering of remembrance, which is the grain offering of jealousy. In his own hand the priest shall have the water of bitterness that brings the curse. 19 Then the priest shall make her take an oath, saying, “If no man has lain with you, if you have not turned aside to uncleanness while under your husband’s authority, be immune to this water of bitterness that brings the curse. 20 But if you have gone astray while under your husband’s authority, if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has had intercourse with you,” 21 —let the priest make the woman take the oath of the curse and say to the woman—“the LORD make you an execration and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your uterus drop, your womb discharge; 22 now may this water that brings the curse enter your bowels and make your womb discharge, your uterus drop!” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.”

23 Then the priest shall put these curses in writing, and wash them off into the water of bitterness. 24 He shall make the woman drink the water of bitterness that brings the curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her and cause bitter pain. 25 The priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy out of the woman’s hand, and shall elevate the grain offering before the LORD and bring it to the altar; 26 and the priest shall take a handful of the grain offering, as its memorial portion, and turn it into smoke on the altar, and afterward shall make the woman drink the water. 27 When he has made her drink the water, then, if she has defiled herself and has been unfaithful to her husband, the water that brings the curse shall enter into her and cause bitter pain, and her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop, and the woman shall become an execration among her people. 28 But if the woman has not defiled herself and is clean, then she shall be immune and be able to conceive children.

> Which is defined as the shedding of innocent blood. God makes no
>distinction between the born and the unborn.

Oh, pah.

> In Jeremiah, the Lord says
>"Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you, before you were born I set you
>apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

God meant that Jeremiah's soul existed before his body was created. The body is nothing more than the housing of the soul.

>God does speak about child killing and He does not approve! Jeremiah 7:32
>"They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to
>burn their sons and daughters in the fire - something I did not command, nor
>did it enter my mind."

There are dozens of places in the Bible where God commands death to unruly children and death to innocent children.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son [is] stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; [he is] a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Or how about

Judges 19: 22 While they were enjoying themselves, the men of the city, a perverse lot, surrounded the house, and started pounding on the door. They said to the old man, the master of the house, “Bring out the man who came into your house, so that we may have intercourse with him.” 23 And the man, the master of the house, went out to them and said to them, “No, my brothers, do not act so wickedly. Since this man is my guest, do not do this vile thing. 24 Here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do whatever you want to them; but against this man do not do such a vile thing.” 25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man seized his concubine, and put her out to them. They wantonly raped her, and abused her all through the night until the morning. And as the dawn began to break, they let her go. 26 As morning appeared, the woman came and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her master was, until it was light. 27 In the morning her master got up, opened the doors of the house, and when he went out to go on his way, there was his concubine lying at the door of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 “Get up,” he said to her, “we are going.” But there was no answer. Then he put her on the donkey; and the man set out for his home. 29 When he had entered his house, he took a knife, and grasping his concubine he cut her into twelve pieces, limb by limb, and sent her throughout all the territory of Israel. 30 Then he commanded the men whom he sent, saying, “Thus shall you say to all the Israelites, ‘Has such a thing ever happened † since the day that the Israelites came up from the land of Egypt until this day? Consider it, take counsel, and speak out.’ ”

Or

Deut. 20: 10 When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. 11 If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you at forced labor. 12 If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; 13 and when the LORD your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. 14 You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the LORD your God has given you. 15 Thus you shall treat all the towns that are very far from you, which are not towns of the nations here. 16 But as for the towns of these peoples that the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. 17 You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as the LORD your God has commanded, 18 so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the LORD your God.

Is enslaving innocent women and children your idea of kind and merciful? What about killing every living thing?

I can find a passage in the Bible to support my wish to show compassion, mercy, or vengeance as the mood fits. You have picked through the Bible to find a few sentences that could be taken out of context and used to support your argument. There is no clear injunction in the Bible against contraception, abortion, infanticide, or even the murder of rebellious grown children. Indeed, there is a command (see first quote) to have rebellious children stoned to death. Like you, however, I do believe infanticide and murder of children are quite wrong, even if the Bible doesn't clearly prohibit them. I am also against polygamy and slavery, even though both are condoned by the Bible - indeed, Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.

Since you cannot seem to indicate any place in the Bible where abortion is clearly condemned, I will not discuss that portion of the issue with you in the future. I direct you to the following URL: http://www.postfun.com/pfp/blasphemy.html

If you need more information on the topic, there are dozens of links on my Abortion with an Attitude page that discuss the ethics and morality of abortion from a pro-choice viewpoint.

> That is how far the idea of taking the life of a
>child is to God. That verse was really brought home to me in Buffalo,
>standing out in front of the abortion clinic on Main, that God is talking to
>us now, and He goes on to talk about the punishment that befalls a nation
>that rejects God. God punishes nations and the people who live in them for
>the shedding of innocent blood. The ground in this country crys out to
>heaven for vengence.

According to James Madison, the first amendment separation of church and state clauses were adopted "to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife which has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." The soil in this country does not cry out to heaven for vengeance because women use contraceptive and have abortions. A few lunatics who can't seem to control women's reproductive processes cry out for vengeance against women who have the audacity to ignore their ravings.

> 40 million dead babies, in the name of choice.

No dead babies in the name of choice.

> How you
>can justify such wickedness?

Since there is no wickedness, there is nothing to justify.

> As a Christian you know the comands of God, and
>these laws were put here to protect us, to prosper us, not to harm us. We
>are suppose to be a self-controlled people. That means that we are to be
>chaste till married. And children are a blessing from God, so having them is
>a good thing. God knows best. But most Protestant traditions would allow
>birth control, even tubal ligation. I know that the Catholic church doesn't,
>but you don't have to be Catholic if you don't agree with them. I believe
>that birth control is sin, but I also believe that the Holy Spirit will guide
>you if you take it up in prayer. These average Christian, or even
>non-christian doesn't know how the birth control devices work. We go to a
>Dr. and do what they say and don't research it. So the average Christian is
>not well informed. Especially us protestants. We tend to think of birth
>control as a "Catholic thing". But we are begining to start to learn about
>it as more of our leaders in the pro-life movement talk about it. I don't
>worry about the pill because, we don't know if break through ovulation has
>occured, we don't know how often it occurs, and if it did, it was by
>accident. No intent to do harm.

Women seeking an abortion don't intend on doing harm, either. They intend on becoming unpregnant.

> I feel we should worry about the very real
>and living children being dragged to their death everyday in America's death
>camps.

Those "children" who are aborted are no more real and living than the eggs that fail to be implanted in a woman's womb because (1) something in the woman's body naturally inhibits the fertilized eggs from implanting or (2) the woman uses a contraceptive that inhibits the fertilized egg from implanting, fertilized eggs that you don't seem to give a rat's ass about. You are not consistent in your philosophy. To have a consistent philosophy, either you must support abortion rights for women or you must work as hard to outlaw contraception for women as you work to outlaw abortions for women. And when the American public finds out that you are against contraception, not just abortion, your reign of terror will end.

> As a Christian we also are required by God to "rescue those being
>dragged to their death". We are required to not stand idely by while your
>neighbors life is at stake."

Yes, it is so easy for you to spout pious platitudes while you are out of harms way. I'm sure that if there was any real danger to your life, your wealth, or your future, you would turn away, just as you turn away from what you consider the needless slaughter of innocents by the millions when you condone birth control. Spare me your pious platitudes. Your kind are basically self-righteous cowards who use the Bible to try to control other people. You can be depended upon to run away at the slightest sign of danger. And I'm sure you'll be able to find plenty of texts in the Bible to make you feel good while running away.

>Anyways, It is really late, and I have to get up early to be at the clinic
>before they open.

Why don't you spend your time doing something worthwhile?

I will not respond to any more of your messages. Discussing this issue with you is a waste of time. If you want more information on the morality and ethics of abortion from a pro-choice viewpoint, just visit any of the hundreds of links on my Abortion With An Attitude Page.

Sunny

PS. I hope you know that I have posted all of our correspondence on my website under Reader Responses - Hate Mail. I have enjoyed the opportunity to put my thoughts in such a form that my readers have quick responses to comments made by people like you. Thanks again for the opportunity to show all of my readers that your side cannot come up with a consistent moral argument to oppose abortion, only sound-bites, falsified and non-existent studies, and pious platitudes.

>Carole
>I will check out some of your sources re 19th century women leaders, and get
>back to you on that. See if you can be objective and check out what other
>women say about Post- Abortion Stress.
>
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